In two and a half years she closed her in-person practice, built a functional medicine coaching company with eight practitioners under her, launched a second business coaching health and wellness practitioners, and hasn't looked back.

What she'll tell you is that none of it happened in spite of the medicine. It happened because of it.

This conversation goes deep on why TCM practitioners are the most resistant group to go online — and why that resistance might be the thing that kills the profession. Cleo talks about ideal client messaging, the difference between selling sessions and selling transformation, the mindset work that almost nobody wants to do but everybody needs, and why if you have a gift and you're not putting it out there, she finds that selfish.

She also gets candid about her own anxiety at the peak of her success — and the hypnotherapy that helped her understand where it was coming from.

What matters is that Jordan is one of the rare practitioners who has actually metabolized the medicine — not as a clinical system to deploy, but as a path of cultivation that informs everything from how he needles to how he builds a business to how he moves through the world.

What we cover:

Why the retreat from energetic language isn't a sign of clinical maturity — it's a profession-wide crisis of confidence dressed up as pragmatism.

What the Nei Jing actually says about the arrival of qi and why that should be the organizing principle of every treatment, regardless of technique.

The three tiers of practitioner described in the classics and the 13th century commentary that noted most practitioners believe themselves to be at the top when they are decidedly not.

Why graduating as a generalist is a positioning problem before it is ever a marketing problem, and how finding your specific clinical obsession changes everything downstream.

The zheng principle — uprightness — as both a clinical and entrepreneurial foundation, and why moving from a position of power is the only sustainable path in either domain.

Why scattering qi into borrowed modalities and weekend certifications is the same root pattern presenting in your treatment room every day.

And the only two diagnostic questions that matter when building a practice from the ground up.

This is the conversation the profession needs to be having with itself.

In this conversation, David and Rosanna go deep on what women are being told is normal — and what isn't.

What we cover:

• Why most doctors refuse to test hormones during perimenopause and what that's actually costing women.
• The symptoms nobody talks about — vagus nerve dysregulation that mimics fainting, and nighttime heart palpitations that look like anxiety but are driven entirely by cortisol.
• Why a ferritin level of 5 gets sent home with a clean bill of health — and what it's actually doing to your hair, energy, and quality of life.
• The troubling history of gynecology and how unconscious bias still shapes the care women of color receive today, from dismissed pain to disproportionate hysterectomy rates.
• Why the combination of acupuncture, herbal medicine, functional medicine, and lifestyle change is not optional — it's the whole point.
• And what it actually means to determine your own normal and refuse to settle for anything less.

This episode is for practitioners who want a sharper clinical lens on women's health, and for any woman who has ever sat in a doctor's office and been told to just deal with it.

In this conversation, David and Jeff pull no punches on the real state of the acupuncture profession.

What we cover:

• Why the push toward insurance billing is a losing battle — and why the profession should stop fighting it.

• The geographic concentration problem: 44% of US acupuncturists practice in just three states, and what that means for any national advocacy effort.
• The homeopathy warning — a detailed historical parallel for what happens when alternative medicine gets absorbed into the mainstream medical system without protection.
• Why the apprenticeship model and rural relocation may be the most underutilized tools in the profession.
• What it actually looks like to build a thriving cash practice in a town of 70,000 people with a two-week waitlist. And why the last two weeks of every month are pure profit.

This is one of the most strategically honest conversations to appear on Dragon Fire.Side. If you're in practice, considering school, or trying to figure out a path that actually works — this episode is required listening.

Podcast Description:

Dr. Lisa Poole is an 18-year licensed acupuncturist, single parent, MBA graduate, and one of the most honest voices in the profession. After nearly two decades in practice, she's transitioning out of full-time clinical work — not because she wanted to, but because the financial reality of this profession simply doesn't add up for most practitioners.

In this episode, David and Lisa have the conversation the acupuncture profession keeps avoiding.

What we cover:

The 2005–2006 removal of bankruptcy protections for student loans — and how it caused tuitions to immediately double and triple across the country. Why student loan attorneys consistently identify naturopaths and acupuncturists as the hardest-hit professions in the United States. What borrower's defense is and why Lisa believes every acupuncturist with federal student loans has a legitimate case. The debt-to-income data showing most acupuncture schools are charging 400–700% of what the career can actually support. Why schools bear direct responsibility for never building career pathways into hospitals and medical clinics. What real advocacy looks like — from getting acupuncture added as an essential benefit in Oregon to nearly two decades of federal student loan reform work.

And where the real hope lives — because patient demand has never been higher, and the medicine isn't going anywhere.

This one is honest, grounded, and worth your time whether you're in practice, considering school, or just trying to understand why such a powerful medicine is struggling to survive.

Chapters

• 00:00 The Journey to Acupuncture
• 15:00 Challenges in the Acupuncture Profession
• 23:11 Advocacy and Legislative Efforts
• 30:53 Community Engagement and Advocacy
• 40:36 Hope and Resilience

Is acupuncture losing its soul trying to earn a seat at Western medicine's table?

In this episode, David Bernard sits down with spiritual teacher and author Lujan Matus and veteran acupuncturist Dr. Christopher Butler (35+ years in practice) to explore what gets stripped away when Traditional Chinese Medicine shrinks itself to fit the allopathic model — and what it actually means to be a true healer.

They go deep on why the best practitioners are often those who've suffered most, what yin and yang really mean (they're relational, not fixed), how the Dan Tian and fascia connect to consciousness and healing, the emotional roots of illness before it becomes physical, and why holding space for a patient matters more than the needles.

One of the most powerful moments: Lujan reframing the needle entirely — you don't send your Qi into someone. The obstruction pulls you in. You empty yourself. The body does the rest.

If you've ever felt like the medicine you were taught was only half the picture, this one is for you.

🌐 parallelperception.com 🌐 drchristopherbutler.com

Takeaways

• TCM and cannabis integration
• Importance of education and regulation in the cannabis industry

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introductions
• 19:23 Safety and Regulation in the Cannabis Industry
• 43:34 The Role of Budtenders and Education

visit https://radicalrootsherbs.com/ or https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmjoy/ to connect with Chloe and Lauren

Ryan has been inside the belly of the beast:

• Cancer research & surgery

• Pediatric spine & brain cases

• Private hospital administration

• Front-row seats to how broken billing and “sick care” really are

Today, he works with a Fortune 100–level nutraceutical company using Raman spectroscopy to measure cellular nutrition and antioxidant status in real time — and then uses that data to help providers:

• Improve patient outcomes

• Add cash revenue streams to their practices

• And build businesses rooted in authenticity, not gimmicks

In this conversation, David and Ryan explore:

• Why 95% of people are nutritionally under-fueled at the cellular level

• How a simple hand-scan can act like a “credit score” for your cells

• The difference between quoting science… and actually running clinicals on your product

• How Ryan went from OR and hospital politics to nutrition, biochem & genetics

• Why “prevention is profitable” when you can measure what you’re talking about

• The role of discipline, self-honesty, and mindset in entrepreneurship

• Authentic content vs. formulaic “fake authenticity” on social media

• How he built a thriving business using organic content only (no paid ads)

• Why movement, fascia, and subtle energetics matter just as much as lab markers

This episode is for practitioners who:

• Feel trapped between broken insurance models and supplement guesswork

• Want objective tools to talk about lifestyle, nutrition, and risk with patients

• Are curious how to build cash-based, values-aligned revenue into their practice

• Know they need to show up online, but want to do it in a way that still feels human

Ryan and David also nerd out on how to become more like your own comic-book hero in real life.

Disclaimer:
This episode is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not medical advice and does not diagnose, treat, or cure any condition. Always consult a qualified healthcare provider regarding your personal health and any changes to your treatment plan.

Together, they explore the real reasons why acupuncture schools are closing, why 80% of practitioners fail in the first five years, and what absolutely must change for the profession to survive.

Gretchen brings nearly two decades of experience from every angle of the field — clinician, educator, administrator, philosopher — and offers a brutally honest but deeply compassionate look at the structural, financial, and cultural challenges facing new practitioners.

In this conversation, they unpack:

• The true cost of becoming an acupuncturist (and why students are buried before they start)

• Why most graduates unknowingly sign up to be entrepreneurs, not employees

• How student loans, cost of living, and long program requirements create structural barriers

• Where acupuncture schools are failing — and where their hands are tied

• Why business training is completely insufficient in most programs

• What new grads actually need to survive their first 1–3 years

• Why society needs integrative medicine more than ever

• How to create a sustainable practice without burning out

• The vital importance of marketing, mentorship, and outsourcing

• The opportunity created by school closures and rising demand

• Why the next generation of practitioners must rethink what “practice” looks like

This is one of the most important Fireside conversations yet — a candid and nuanced discussion about the evolution, challenges, and urgent opportunities facing the acupuncture profession today.

🔥 If you're a student, new practitioner, educator, or clinic owner, this episode is essential listening.

With a focus on integrative medicine and patient-centered care, Noa reveals her journey from zero clients to running a flourishing clinic, Zoi Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine.

In this conversation, we uncover the secrets behind Noa's success, including the importance of authenticity, excellence in patient care, and the innovative integration of modern diagnostics with traditional Chinese medicine practices.

This podcast is a must-listen for anyone interested in health, wellness, and the transformative power of integrating traditional and modern medicine.

Whether you're a clinical practitioner looking to enhance your practice, someone interested in exploring alternative medicine, or simply a listener in search of inspiration from a successful healthcare entrepreneur, this episode offers valuable insights into achieving success and sustainability in the competitive world of healthcare.

#IntegrativeMedicine #AcupunctureSuccess #HerbalMedicine #PatientCareExcellence #HealthcareInnovation #ClinicProfitability

Visit zoiwell.com to connect with Noa or schedule an in person or telemedicine conference.

Visit leadbetter.app to find out how we help bring clinics to profitability while protecting and prioritizing the practitioners without compromising quality of care.

John brings three decades of personal study, 18 years of clinical experience, and a rare blend of critical thinking, philosophical depth, and practical insight. What unfolds is a profound dialogue on the true purpose of medicine, the business and ethics of practice, the gaps in modern healthcare systems, and the sacred exchange that happens between practitioner and patient.

Together, David and John explore:

• The difference between nourishing life and fighting disease

• How Chinese medicine fills the enormous gaps left by modern allopathic care

• Why the infrastructure—not the science—is the real strength of Western medicine

• The sobering reality that acupuncturists must navigate in business, money, and ethics

• How to practice integrity in a world where the patient is also a customer

• Why pricing carries psychological and energetic significance

• The tension between service, integrity, and the need for financial survival

• The future of the profession across Europe, the U.S., and the world

• The role of community clinics and low-cost care

• Why commodifying human relationships is a danger to both patients and practitioners

• How to use money ethically, consciously, and as part of a healing relationship

This conversation weaves together philosophy, clinical insight, economics, ethics, and the lived reality of being a practitioner in the modern world.

If you're a clinician, student, or someone navigating the intersection of healing and business, this episode will challenge you, inspire you, and give you a deeper understanding of what it really means to practice medicine.

Chloe’s story is one of grit, heartbreak, innovation, and unwavering devotion. A single mother and practitioner, she entered the world of herbal entrepreneurship not because she wanted to, but because she had to — to support her son Remy, who lives with a rare genetic disorder.

Out of necessity, Chloe developed a unique hemp-based botanical formula paired with traditional Chinese herbs (nicknamed “Remy’s Revenge”), which profoundly supported her son’s quality of life. What started as an act of love became a mission — and eventually, a company.

In this episode, David and Chloe explore:

• Why practitioners must become advocates or the medicine won’t survive

• The urgent need for visibility, education, and public outreach

• How Chloe built Radical Roots and Noxi Herbs from scratch without outside funding

• Why hemp-based formulations are powerful — yet brutally difficult to market

• The hidden reality of supplement margins, manufacturing, and retail

• The challenge of maintaining integrity in an industry obsessed with profits

• Why more practitioners need to get uncomfortable, get loud, and get out there

• The identity crisis within TCM and why community matters

• What new practitioners aren’t told but desperately need to know

• How to keep going when your calling meets a society that doesn’t understand your work

Chloe’s honesty, rawness, humor, and relentless commitment to the medicine make this one of the most inspiring Fireside conversations yet.

This episode is for every practitioner who has ever doubted their path — and every parent, healer, or entrepreneur who knows they’re here to fight for something bigger than themselves.

Disclaimer:

This episode is for educational and informational purposes only. It does not constitute medical advice and does not promote, advertise, or endorse any specific herbal or hemp-derived products. Always consult a qualified healthcare provider for any medical concerns.

- **TCM and Modern Healthcare:** Chris Butler discusses his journey and specialization in TCM, particularly in women's reproductive health and acupuncture. He emphasizes the synergy between TCM and modern healthcare practices, arguing for a more holistic approach to treatment.

- **Fertility and Gynecology:** Butler has dedicated a significant part of his career to helping women with fertility issues, leveraging his expertise in the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine.

- **Acupuncture’s Versatility:** The conversation touches upon the public's limited understanding of acupuncture. It's more than pain relief; it's a comprehensive system addressing a wide array of health issues.

- **Functional Medicine and Chinese Medicine:** Butler draws parallels between functional medicine and TCM, both focusing on individualized treatment and understanding the root causes of health issues rather than just treating symptoms.

- **Dermatology and Herbal Medicine:** A significant portion of the discussion revolves around treating dermatological conditions like psoriasis and eczema with herbal medicine, highlighting the effectiveness of TCM over conventional treatments in certain cases.

- **Educating Patients:** The role of a TCM practitioner, according to Butler, extends beyond treatment. It involves educating patients about their health, lifestyle, and the interconnections between various aspects of their lives and their wellbeing.

- **Integration of Allopathic and TCM:** Butler advocates for the integration of allopathic (Western) medicine and TCM, stressing that each has its strengths and, when combined, can offer more effective treatment solutions.

- **Chronic Illnesses and Lifestyle Changes:** The discussion underscores the importance of lifestyle changes in managing chronic illnesses, where TCM can play a vital role in guiding patients towards healthier living.

- **Empirical Basis of TCM:** The conversation also sheds light on the empirical, trial-and-error basis of TCM, which has evolved over thousands of years, and its relevance in modern healthcare.

Over 50 minutes, they explore the pivotal crossroads facing the acupuncture profession — from failing schools and collapsing infrastructure to the unprecedented opportunity awaiting practitioners who are ready to evolve.

Dr. Rosenfarb shares his origin story, how a single encounter with an acupuncturist changed the course of his life, and why he chose to pioneer an entirely new clinical specialty in ophthalmology when no formal training existed.

Together, David and Andy unpack:

• Why the acupuncture profession is collapsing — and why that’s actually an opportunity

• How to build a modern clinical practice using online programs, telemedicine, and digital marketing

• Why practitioners must specialize to survive the next decade

• Andy’s proven, high-success ophthalmology treatment model (in-office + home care)

• How he built one of the most successful integrative clinics in the U.S.

• The role of content, social media, and public visibility in saving the profession

• The importance of practitioners learning funnels, messaging, marketing, and entrepreneurship

• Why the opportunity for acupuncturists in the next 20 years is larger than ever in history

• The call for unity, community, and a new era of professional stewardship

Whether you’re a student, a practitioner, an educator, or someone who cares about the future of integrative medicine, this is the episode you need to hear.

This conversation is a rallying cry — a bell-ringer — for every practitioner who believes in this medicine and knows the world needs it now more than ever.

🔥 The question is no longer “Can acupuncture survive?”
🔥 The question is: “Are we willing to evolve?”

After my recent Dragon Fire.Sides conversation with Dr. Gretchen Badami about school closures, federal pressure, and why so many acupuncturists are struggling, the comments section lit up.
One of the strongest and most thoughtful responses came from today’s guest, Dr. Mary (Molly) Cooke — and this episode is a direct response to that discussion.

Molly’s lived experience speaks directly to the silent crisis many practitioners face:

• Crushing student loan debt
• Few viable jobs
• Problematic work environments
• Lack of support after graduation
• Burnout, invisibility, and emotional exhaustion

Together, we explore:

• Why acupuncturists are being gaslit by the very systems meant to support them
• The brutal math of debt vs. actual practitioner income
• What’s really happening with school closures and institutional pressure
• Why so many acupuncturists feel abandoned, betrayed, or deceived

Is medicine a calling or a business?
What happens when a healer is forced to become an entrepreneur to survive?

• Why the public doesn’t understand acupuncture
• Why practitioners don’t agree on what acupuncture is
• How lack of standardization fuels confusion — and enables exploitation

This conversation builds on the themes from the episode with Dr. Gretchen Badami and pushes them further:
Acupuncture must become more visible, more unified, more empowered — or risk being sidelined and replaced by lesser-trained providers.

This episode is a call to action for practitioners who feel:

• Underpaid
• Undervalued
• Unseen
• Overwhelmed
• Burned out
• Or simply tired of pretending everything is fine

You are not alone.
You are not crazy.
And your voice matters.

Disclaimer:
This episode is for educational and informational purposes only. It does not constitute medical, legal, business, or financial advice. Always consult relevant professionals regarding your unique circumstances.

🔥 The Crisis Behind the Curtain🔥 The Ethical Tension🔥 The Identity Crisis of the Profession🔥 The Path Forward