<![CDATA[Conversation Lab Podcast]]>The Conversation Lab Podcast is a podcast about the power of conversation, told through conversations with people who live close to it every day. Each episode features a candid discussion with an expert from an adjacent field - design, research, psychology, community, leadership, writing, or systems thinking - exploring how conversation actually works in their world and what the rest of us can learn from it. This isn’t an interview show chasing soundbites or hot takes. It’s a slower, thoughtful exchange focused on how listening, framing, silence, and trust shape outcomes, and how better conversations lead to better decisions.

]]>https://jakemckee.com/podcastRiverside.fm (https://riverside.com)Thu, 28 May 2026 03:05:35 GMTMon, 09 Feb 2026 06:10:57 GMT60Jake McKee<p>The <b>Conversation Lab Podcast</b> is a podcast about the power of conversation, told through conversations with people who live close to it every day. Each episode features a candid discussion with an expert from an adjacent field - design, research, psychology, community, leadership, writing, or systems thinking - exploring how conversation actually works in their world and what the rest of us can learn from it. This isn’t an interview show chasing soundbites or hot takes. It’s a slower, thoughtful exchange focused on how listening, framing, silence, and trust shape outcomes, and how better conversations lead to better decisions.</p>episodicJake McKeejake@jakemckee.comno<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Josh Zerkel - S1E10]]>Josh Zerkel has spent 20 years building brand communities at companies like Asana, Evernote, and CBS News. He just published a book called The Community Code. And his argument is one that a lot of community professionals have been trying to make for a long time: community isn't a support deflection tool. It's a go-to-market engine, and most organizations have no idea how to treat it like one.

In this episode, Jake and Josh talk about why community keeps getting stuck in the "nice to have" bucket, how to speak about community impact in the language the rest of the business actually uses, and why showing confidence in your work is more effective than drowning stakeholders in metrics.

Find more about Josh:

]]>6a5b5096-352b-4dda-985b-6054acd546a0Mon, 25 May 2026 20:21:36 GMT<p>Josh Zerkel has spent 20 years building brand communities at companies like Asana, Evernote, and CBS News. He just published a book called The Community Code. And his argument is one that a lot of community professionals have been trying to make for a long time: community isn't a support deflection tool. It's a go-to-market engine, and most organizations have no idea how to treat it like one.</p><p></p><p>In this episode, Jake and Josh talk about why community keeps getting stuck in the "nice to have" bucket, how to speak about community impact in the language the rest of the business actually uses, and why showing confidence in your work is more effective than drowning stakeholders in metrics.<br /><br />Find more about Josh:<br /></p><ul><li><b>Book: </b><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.amazon.com/Community-Code-Strengthening-Go-Market-ebook/dp/B0GNJBXCPR" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Community-Code-Strengthening-Go-Market-ebook/dp/B0GNJBXCPR</a></li><li><b>LinkedIn:</b> <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuazerkel/" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuazerkel/</a></li><li><b>Substack:</b> <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://thecommunitycode.substack.com" target="_blank">thecommunitycode.substack.com</a></li></ul>no00:52:51110Conversation Lab: Josh Zerkel - S1E10full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Conversation Amplification Exploration - S1E9]]>Most product teams have one or two people who actually talk to customers. Everyone else makes decisions based on a summary of what those people heard. The problem is that a summary of a conversation is not the conversation. Tone disappears. Specifics get flattened. Surprises get buried. What's left mostly confirms whatever the team already believed.

In this solo exploration episode, Jake walks through the fourth pillar of the Customer Conversation Compass: Conversation Amplification. That means getting the real customer voice, not a cleaned-up version of it, to the people inside your organization who need to hear it most. Jake covers the five blockers that stop insight from spreading internally and what to do about each one.

Find out more about Jake's work with the Conversation Compass at: jakemckee.com

]]>85a8a6d4-dd77-4109-a8ba-810442a5c34fMon, 25 May 2026 20:12:48 GMT<p>Most product teams have one or two people who actually talk to customers. Everyone else makes decisions based on a summary of what those people heard. The problem is that a summary of a conversation is not the conversation. Tone disappears. Specifics get flattened. Surprises get buried. What's left mostly confirms whatever the team already believed.<br /></p><p>In this solo exploration episode, Jake walks through the fourth pillar of the Customer Conversation Compass: Conversation Amplification. That means getting the real customer voice, not a cleaned-up version of it, to the people inside your organization who need to hear it most. Jake covers the five blockers that stop insight from spreading internally and what to do about each one.<br /><br />Find out more about Jake's work with the Conversation Compass at: jakemckee.com</p>no00:16:3519Conversation Lab: Conversation Amplification Exploration - S1E9full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Lee LeFever - S1E8]]>Lee LeFever started Common Craft back in 2003 with a simple idea: technology only spreads as far as people can understand it. His "In Plain English" videos broke down everything from RSS to Twitter using paper cutouts, hand-drawn art, and a whiteboard that lived on the floor of his house. Millions of people watched. Educators licensed them. A whole genre of explainer videos grew up around what Lee was doing.

In this episode, Jake and Lee go back about 20 years to talk about how it all started, why simple beat slick, and what it taught Lee about explanation as a real skill people can learn.

Find out more about Lee at https://commoncraft.com

Find out more about Jake and the Customer Conversation Compass at: https://jakemckee.com/

]]>7d460705-4802-42f1-bf5d-ac90812c7c0dThu, 07 May 2026 04:34:08 GMT<p>Lee LeFever started Common Craft back in 2003 with a simple idea: technology only spreads as far as people can understand it. His "In Plain English" videos broke down everything from RSS to Twitter using paper cutouts, hand-drawn art, and a whiteboard that lived on the floor of his house. Millions of people watched. Educators licensed them. A whole genre of explainer videos grew up around what Lee was doing.<br /></p><p>In this episode, Jake and Lee go back about 20 years to talk about how it all started, why simple beat slick, and what it taught Lee about explanation as a real skill people can learn.<br /><br />Find out more about Lee at <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://commoncraft.com" target="_blank">https://commoncraft.com</a><br /><br />Find out more about Jake and the Customer Conversation Compass at: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://jakemckee.com/" target="_blank">https://jakemckee.com/</a></p>no01:12:5218Conversation Lab: Lee LeFever - S1E8full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Conversation Tuning Exploration - S1E7]]>In this episode, Jake tells the story of the night a whiskey cart rolled into his private dining room at Eleven Madison Park. The staff caught a throwaway joke he made and acted on it. That single moment captures everything Conversation Tuning is about.

This is pillar three of the Customer Conversation Compass. It's the skill of asking questions that actually get you the truth instead of the answer your customer thinks you want to hear.

Jake walks through the three biggest traps that wreck customer conversations, plus a quick pre-flight check you can run on your questions before any customer call.

For more information on the Conversation Compass, visit https://jakemckee.com

]]>664fa395-98b3-4797-9c63-4ed4938ed9a3Sun, 26 Apr 2026 19:01:59 GMT<p>In this episode, Jake tells the story of the night a whiskey cart rolled into his private dining room at Eleven Madison Park. The staff caught a throwaway joke he made and acted on it. That single moment captures everything Conversation Tuning is about.</p><p></p><p>This is pillar three of the Customer Conversation Compass. It's the skill of asking questions that actually get you the truth instead of the answer your customer thinks you want to hear.</p><p></p><p>Jake walks through the three biggest traps that wreck customer conversations, plus a quick pre-flight check you can run on your questions before any customer call.</p><p></p><p>For more information on the Conversation Compass, visit https://jakemckee.com</p>no00:18:07Conversation Lab: Conversation Tuning Exploration - S1E7full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Larry Glickman S1E6]]>Most people think a conversation starts when someone opens their mouth. It doesn't. It starts long before that, when the other person trusts you enough to say something real.

Larry Glickman is the founder of JCAT Partners, where he trains law enforcement and private security professionals to work more effectively with the Jewish community. His program isn't a checklist. It's a foundation. Before anyone can have a quality conversation, they need to understand the language, rituals, and cultural context of the people they're working with. Without that, what you get isn't a real conversation. You get surface-level compliance and a lot of missed signals.

In this episode, Larry and Jake dig into what it takes to build the conditions for honest conversation, and why product teams skip this step more than they realize.

More information at: https://compass.jakemckee.com

]]>bc8e5bf7-636c-4845-8d0d-f4d5581de611Mon, 13 Apr 2026 17:54:37 GMT<p>Most people think a conversation starts when someone opens their mouth. It doesn't. It starts long before that, when the other person trusts you enough to say something real.<br /></p><p>Larry Glickman is the founder of JCAT Partners, where he trains law enforcement and private security professionals to work more effectively with the Jewish community. His program isn't a checklist. It's a foundation. Before anyone can have a quality conversation, they need to understand the language, rituals, and cultural context of the people they're working with. Without that, what you get isn't a real conversation. You get surface-level compliance and a lot of missed signals.<br /></p><p>In this episode, Larry and Jake dig into what it takes to build the conditions for honest conversation, and why product teams skip this step more than they realize.<br /><br />More information at: https://compass.jakemckee.com</p>no01:03:4416Conversation Lab: Larry Glickman S1E6full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Conversation Architecture Exploration - S1E5 ]]>In this solo episode, Jake introduces the second pillar of the Customer Conversation Compass: Conversation Architecture. He opens with a real story about a virtual support group for parents of kids in a mental health crisis, and what happens when the organization running it never bothered to design the space.

Jake breaks down the seven dimensions of Conversation Architecture, the intentional design work that happens before anyone says a word.

Find out more about the Conversation Compass at: https://compass.jakemckee.com

]]>cb50659b-7416-4956-a0b3-8dac1772e0aeMon, 06 Apr 2026 19:30:02 GMT<p>In this solo episode, Jake introduces the second pillar of the Customer Conversation Compass: Conversation Architecture. He opens with a real story about a virtual support group for parents of kids in a mental health crisis, and what happens when the organization running it never bothered to design the space.</p><p></p><p>Jake breaks down the seven dimensions of Conversation Architecture, the intentional design work that happens before anyone says a word. <br /><br />Find out more about the Conversation Compass at: https://compass.jakemckee.com</p>no00:17:0215Conversation Lab: Conversation Architecture Exploration - S1E5 full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Martin Drayton - S1E4]]>What if the best training ground for customer conversations is in a plane at 35,000 feet, or a beginner ski slope at 7am?

Martin Drayton has spent decades reading strangers fast and figuring out how to reach them. As a flight attendant and snowboard instructor, that's the whole job.

Today we talk about what that actually looks like and what product teams can steal from it.

Find out more about Martin at:
https://www.instagram.com/emdee_scale_models/


https://youtube.com/@emdeescalemodels

https://www.facebook.com/MartinBuildsModels

More information on conversation design at:

https://jakemckee.com/compass

]]>4042bbb1-6aff-4660-957a-1ad4f5ac3bd3Wed, 25 Mar 2026 21:04:21 GMT<p>What if the best training ground for customer conversations is in a plane at 35,000 feet, or a beginner ski slope at 7am?</p><p></p><p>Martin Drayton has spent decades reading strangers fast and figuring out how to reach them. As a flight attendant and snowboard instructor, that's the whole job.</p><p></p><p>Today we talk about what that actually looks like and what product teams can steal from it.<br /><br />Find out more about Martin at:<br /><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.instagram.com/emdee_scale_models/" target="_blank"><b>https://www.instagram.com/emdee_scale_models/</b></a></p><p><br /><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://youtube.com/@emdeescalemodels" target="_blank"><b>https://youtube.com/@emdeescalemodels</b></a><br /></p><p><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.facebook.com/MartinBuildsModels" target="_blank"><b>https://www.facebook.com/MartinBuildsModels</b></a><br /><br />More information on conversation design at:</p><p></p><p><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://jakemckee.com/compass" target="_blank"><b>https://jakemckee.com/compass</b></a></p><p></p>no01:08:4114Conversation Lab: Martin Drayton - S1E4full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: Conversation Debt Exploration - S1E3]]>

Most product teams believe they understand their customers. They have NPS scores, research decks, and Slack channels full of feedback snippets. What they often don't have is an actual conversation.

In this Exploration episode, I dig into Conversation Debt: the accumulated cost of conversations that never happened. We cover what real customer conversation actually is, how debt accumulates through layers of secondhand insight, and why AI tools are making this problem faster and harder to see at the same time.

One stat that tends to land hard: 80% of executives believe their company delivers a superior customer experience. 8%of customers agree.


That gap has a name. And it's fixable.


Take the free Conversation Debt Assessment at jakemckee.com/compass.

]]>69f4e4fe-e67e-4545-b6fc-0b843f715c2eSun, 22 Mar 2026 20:38:50 GMT<p></p><p>Most product teams believe they understand their customers. They have NPS scores, research decks, and Slack channels full of feedback snippets. What they often don't have is an actual conversation.</p><p>In this Exploration episode, I dig into Conversation Debt: the accumulated cost of conversations that never happened. We cover what real customer conversation actually is, how debt accumulates through layers of secondhand insight, and why AI tools are making this problem faster and harder to see at the same time.<br /></p><p>One stat that tends to land hard: 80% of executives believe their company delivers a superior customer experience. 8%of customers agree.</p><p><br />That gap has a name. And it's fixable.</p><p><br />Take the free Conversation Debt Assessment at <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://jakemckee.com/compass" target="_blank">jakemckee.com/compass</a>.</p>no00:26:2713Conversation Lab: Conversation Debt Exploration - S1E3full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab: William Marks - S1E2]]>In this first interview episode of the Conversation Lab Podcast, Jake McKee sits down with William Marks, a Navy veteran, former Pentagon spokesman, and congressional candidate in Washington State, to explore what happens when the people responsible for communication stop talking only to the people who already speak their language. William's career has put him in some of the highest-stakes conversation environments imaginable: military briefings, CNN studios, political campaigns in deeply unfriendly territory. What emerges from the conversation is a through-line most product leaders will recognize, the gap between curated, institutional messaging and the kind of unfiltered human exchange that actually changes minds. Along the way they dig into what the Navy learned about communication after Vietnam, why over-engineering a conversation before you have it is what kills it, how a self-described introvert ended up as a Pentagon spokesman, and why one good conversation is never enough if the system around it doesn't change.

More information: https://jakemckee.com/podcast

]]>fff6fc15-7c91-4777-99a2-ee101e6d2f71Mon, 16 Mar 2026 23:04:17 GMT<p>In this first interview episode of the Conversation Lab Podcast, Jake McKee sits down with William Marks, a Navy veteran, former Pentagon spokesman, and congressional candidate in Washington State, to explore what happens when the people responsible for communication stop talking only to the people who already speak their language. William's career has put him in some of the highest-stakes conversation environments imaginable: military briefings, CNN studios, political campaigns in deeply unfriendly territory. What emerges from the conversation is a through-line most product leaders will recognize, the gap between curated, institutional messaging and the kind of unfiltered human exchange that actually changes minds. Along the way they dig into what the Navy learned about communication after Vietnam, why over-engineering a conversation before you have it is what kills it, how a self-described introvert ended up as a Pentagon spokesman, and why one good conversation is never enough if the system around it doesn't change.<br /><br />More information: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://jakemckee.com/" target="_blank">https://jakemckee.com/podcast</a></p>no00:54:3012Conversation Lab: William Marks - S1E2full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab Introduction - S1E1]]>In this first episode of the Conversation Lab Podcast, host Jake McKee introduces himself, the show, and the framework behind his consulting work — the Customer Conversation Compass. Jake draws on 25+ years of customer engagement experience, including building one of the most ambitious fan community programs at LEGO, to make the case that most product teams have lost direct contact with the people they serve, not because they're lazy, but because they've built a system that filters, summarizes, and sanitizes the customer voice until it's barely recognizable. He calls this Conversation Debt, and it's the enemy at the center of everything he does. The Conversation Compass, a five-pillar conversation design framework, is his answer. The podcast, he explains, will bring in voices from well outside the product world: therapists, journalists, negotiators, improvisers, researchers, and others who have spent careers thinking hard about what makes conversation work and what kills it, with the goal of giving product teams a richer, more practical toolkit for the conversations that actually matter.


More information at: https://jakemckee.com/podcast

]]>c01c418b-6929-4cd8-82ee-723b28bec7c0Mon, 16 Mar 2026 23:02:56 GMT<p>In this first episode of the Conversation Lab Podcast, host Jake McKee introduces himself, the show, and the framework behind his consulting work — the Customer Conversation Compass. Jake draws on 25+ years of customer engagement experience, including building one of the most ambitious fan community programs at LEGO, to make the case that most product teams have lost direct contact with the people they serve, not because they're lazy, but because they've built a system that filters, summarizes, and sanitizes the customer voice until it's barely recognizable. He calls this Conversation Debt, and it's the enemy at the center of everything he does. The Conversation Compass, a five-pillar conversation design framework, is his answer. The podcast, he explains, will bring in voices from well outside the product world: therapists, journalists, negotiators, improvisers, researchers, and others who have spent careers thinking hard about what makes conversation work and what kills it, with the goal of giving product teams a richer, more practical toolkit for the conversations that actually matter.</p><p><br />More information at: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://jakemckee.com/podcast" target="_blank">https://jakemckee.com/podcast</a></p>no00:20:0311Conversation Lab Introduction - S1E1full<![CDATA[Conversation Lab Podcast: Season 1 Trailer]]>The Conversation Lab Podcast explores how better dialogue leads to better decisions, stronger products, and clearer thinking. Hosted by me (Jake McKee), this podcast goes beyond surface-level interviews and digs into the moments where insight is created in real time.

This episode is a pre-launch trailer, briefly sharing some details about what the show will be and what to expect.

If you care about building things that matter, listening well, and avoiding secondhand insight, you’re in the right place.

]]>b390472e-7c7a-47b3-a1c5-f925ed00ebbbTue, 03 Mar 2026 23:59:11 GMT<p>The Conversation Lab Podcast explores how better dialogue leads to better decisions, stronger products, and clearer thinking. Hosted by me (Jake McKee), this podcast goes beyond surface-level interviews and digs into the moments where insight is created in real time.</p><p></p><p>This episode is a pre-launch trailer, briefly sharing some details about what the show will be and what to expect.</p><p>If you care about building things that matter, listening well, and avoiding secondhand insight, you’re in the right place.</p>no00:05:001Conversation Lab Podcast: Season 1 Trailertrailer