<![CDATA[The Wicked Truth: Third Things First]]>Author, educator, and nonprofit founder Suzanne Ross sits down to explore the complexities of human nature with scholars, artists and activists who are giving their all to cultivate peaceful, compassionate communities. These dialogues focus on art as a "third thing" which peacebuilders use to bend the imagination away from violence.

These conversations reflect decades of partnership and lessons learned in the pursuit of conflict transformation, healed trauma, and true peace. At the heart of each exchange is a distressing insight, a "wicked truth" about human society: When we become convinced of our own righteousness, "good people" can do some really, really bad things.

Come join a growing community of peacebuilders, educators, authors, and changemakers willing to be seen as "wicked" for their commitment to empathy, nonviolence, and transformative learning. Let’s create a more compassionate world!

]]>http://thewickedtruth.com/Riverside.fm (https://riverside.com)Wed, 14 Oct 2026 02:42:59 GMTMon, 26 Jan 2026 19:13:33 GMT60Suzanne Ross<p>Author, educator, and nonprofit founder Suzanne Ross sits down to explore the complexities of human nature with scholars, artists and activists who are giving their all to cultivate peaceful, compassionate communities. These dialogues focus on art as a "third thing" which peacebuilders use to bend the imagination away from violence.<br /><br />These conversations reflect decades of partnership and lessons learned in the pursuit of conflict transformation, healed trauma, and true peace. At the heart of each exchange is a distressing insight, a "wicked truth" about human society: When we become convinced of our own righteousness, "good people" can do some really, really bad things.<br /><br />Come join a growing community of peacebuilders, educators, authors, and changemakers willing to be seen as "wicked" for their commitment to empathy, nonviolence, and transformative learning. Let’s create a more compassionate world!</p>episodicSuzanne Rosslyleenright@gmail.comno<![CDATA[Third Things First Season One Recap]]>In this season finale of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross and producer-editor Lyle Enright look back on eight conversations with peacebuilders and cast a vision for a new season centered on uncertainty, the sense of freefall, and the “joy of being wrong.”Suzanne and Lyle revisit core themes from this season’s guests, from changing narratives and “third things” to the neuroscience of conflict, racial healing in church graveyards, and quantum physics.

Website || www.thewickedtruth.com
Substack || https://substack.com/@UCgzPggNwTqXmki...

Learn more about Lyle's writing, scholarship, and other projects in his portfolio! || https://www.lyleenright.com/

]]>2feb2a70-d6dd-4b7b-b5af-036508450a87Mon, 27 Jul 2026 19:35:14 GMT<p>In this season finale of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross and producer-editor Lyle Enright look back on eight conversations with peacebuilders and cast a vision for a new season centered on uncertainty, the sense of freefall, and the “joy of being wrong.”Suzanne and Lyle revisit core themes from this season’s guests, from changing narratives and “third things” to the neuroscience of conflict, racial healing in church graveyards, and quantum physics.<br /><br />Website || <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://www.thewickedtruth.com" target="_blank">www.thewickedtruth.com</a><br />Substack || <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://substack.com/@UCgzPggNwTqXmki" target="_blank">https://substack.com/@UCgzPggNwTqXmki</a><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&amp;redir_token=QUM4Zm9rUlVoWjRSU3JVeHVoUFV0WExuR0prNXxBR3JiS2FtQndxbUF0N1FHUWJYZGNPSUJiMW84emx0NEdKMmdTNFBBUXBPMWRHMHFJMGd1ZmloaFQ2WW4xVExLUW9KaGswb0hjNDF2a2JJbEhiX1VvcFVheXd0SUh1RXNOWFZU&amp;q=https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack.com%2F%40UCgzPggNwTqXmki2QgqehLlQ&amp;v=lU3Kf8VuhOg" target="_blank">...</a> <br /><br />Learn more about Lyle's writing, scholarship, and other projects in his portfolio! || <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.lyleenright.com/" target="_blank">https://www.lyleenright.com/</a></p>no00:52:24112Third Things First Season One Recapfull<![CDATA[Mimetic Theory, Quantum Mechanics, and the Path to Peace: Pablo Bandera]]>What can Schrodinger’s cat teach us about conflict, rivalry, and our relationship to God?

In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with physicist and aerospace engineer Pablo Bandera about his book Reflection in the Waves: The Individual Observer in a Quantum Mechanical World—and how a Girardian approach to quantum physics might open new paths toward peace.

Pablo begins by unpacking the famous thought experiment of Schrodinger’s cat. Classical physics says “there’s a 50/50 chance the cat is alive or dead; we just don’t know yet.” Quantum mechanics says something stranger: before measurement, the cat exists in a superposition state with a 50% probability of being alive and a 50% probability of being dead, and only when we open the box and observe does the wave function “collapse” into one outcome.

From there, Pablo explains nature’s fundamental uncertainty, and how observation doesn’t magically “push” reality telekinetically but does mark the moment when the probabilistic wave function collapses. He and Suzanne then explore the philosophical and theological implications:

-- Why reality, at its deepest level, includes irreducible uncertainty—and why we’re wrong to think we could calculate the future perfectly if we just knew “all the variables.”

-- How our relationships and mimetic dynamics are part of the human observer and therefore part of physical reality.

-- The distinction between reality (shaped by our mimetic relationships and rivalries) and truth (grounded in a perspective beyond time, space, and rivalry—what Pablo names as God’s perspective).

-- How denying that we are mimetic—insisting we are “pure individuals” without models—increases uncertainty and blinds us to the real forces shaping our conflicts.

Pablo also reflects on his collaboration with his father, Cesáreo Bandera, a major voice in mimetic theory and conversation partner of René Girard. Piles of quantum physics books appeared on Cesáreo’s desk as father and son debated drafts of Pablo’s manuscript, bridging the humanities and the sciences in a shared search for how the observer, desire, and sacrifice fit into modern physics.

This “quantum theologian” conversation offers mind‑bending ideas in an accessible way, and suggests that embracing uncertainty and interdependence might be key to breaking cycles of violence.

👉 Learn more about Pablo’s work: https://www.amazon.com/Reflection-Waves-Interdividual-Mechanical-Breakthroughs/dp/1611862825

Follow us on Substack! https://substack.com/@thewickedtruthsr

00:00 Introduction to Third Things First
01:46 Exploring Quantum Physics and Humanity
03:20 Pablo Bandera: Background and Insights
06:02 Understanding Schrödinger's Cat
12:45 The Observer Effect in Quantum Mechanics
16:14 Interdividuality and Its Implications
22:02 The Moment of Observation
25:29 Reality vs. Truth in Quantum Theory
31:59 Idolatry and Mimetic Relationships
33:19 The Scapegoat Mechanism in Society
35:25 The Mimetic Crisis and Scapegoating
38:54 The Search for Certainty in Uncertainty
41:33 Breaking Free from Mimetic Dynamics
45:41 The Role of Love and Interdividuality
48:03 Finding Joy Amidst Conflict

]]>6012518d-8a11-4bf3-a36c-f3209f1e5319Tue, 30 Jun 2026 15:12:51 GMT<p>What can Schrodinger’s cat teach us about conflict, rivalry, and our relationship to God? <br /><br />In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with physicist and aerospace engineer Pablo Bandera about his book Reflection in the Waves: The Individual Observer in a Quantum Mechanical World—and how a Girardian approach to quantum physics might open new paths toward peace.<br /><br />Pablo begins by unpacking the famous thought experiment of Schrodinger’s cat. Classical physics says “there’s a 50/50 chance the cat is alive or dead; we just don’t know yet.” Quantum mechanics says something stranger: before measurement, the cat exists in a superposition state with a 50% probability of being alive and a 50% probability of being dead, and only when we open the box and observe does the wave function “collapse” into one outcome.<br /><br />From there, Pablo explains nature’s fundamental uncertainty, and how observation doesn’t magically “push” reality telekinetically but does mark the moment when the probabilistic wave function collapses. He and Suzanne then explore the philosophical and theological implications:<br /><br />-- Why reality, at its deepest level, includes irreducible uncertainty—and why we’re wrong to think we could calculate the future perfectly if we just knew “all the variables.”<br /><br />-- How our relationships and mimetic dynamics are part of the human observer and therefore part of physical reality.<br /><br />-- The distinction between reality (shaped by our mimetic relationships and rivalries) and truth (grounded in a perspective beyond time, space, and rivalry—what Pablo names as God’s perspective).<br /><br />-- How denying that we are mimetic—insisting we are “pure individuals” without models—increases uncertainty and blinds us to the real forces shaping our conflicts.<br /><br />Pablo also reflects on his collaboration with his father, Cesáreo Bandera, a major voice in mimetic theory and conversation partner of René Girard. Piles of quantum physics books appeared on Cesáreo’s desk as father and son debated drafts of Pablo’s manuscript, bridging the humanities and the sciences in a shared search for how the observer, desire, and sacrifice fit into modern physics.<br /><br />This “quantum theologian” conversation offers mind‑bending ideas in an accessible way, and suggests that embracing uncertainty and interdependence might be key to breaking cycles of violence.<br /><br />👉 Learn more about Pablo’s work: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.amazon.com/Reflection-Waves-Interdividual-Mechanical-Breakthroughs/dp/1611862825" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Reflection-Waves-Interdividual-Mechanical-Breakthroughs/dp/1611862825</a><br /><br />Follow us on Substack! <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://substack.com/@thewickedtruthsr" target="_blank">https://substack.com/@thewickedtruthsr</a><br /><br />00:00 Introduction to Third Things First<br />01:46 Exploring Quantum Physics and Humanity<br />03:20 Pablo Bandera: Background and Insights<br />06:02 Understanding Schrödinger's Cat<br />12:45 The Observer Effect in Quantum Mechanics<br />16:14 Interdividuality and Its Implications<br />22:02 The Moment of Observation<br />25:29 Reality vs. Truth in Quantum Theory<br />31:59 Idolatry and Mimetic Relationships<br />33:19 The Scapegoat Mechanism in Society<br />35:25 The Mimetic Crisis and Scapegoating<br />38:54 The Search for Certainty in Uncertainty<br />41:33 Breaking Free from Mimetic Dynamics<br />45:41 The Role of Love and Interdividuality<br />48:03 Finding Joy Amidst Conflict</p>no00:51:01111Mimetic Theory, Quantum Mechanics, and the Path to Peace: Pablo Banderafull<![CDATA[Gena St. David on Training a Nonviolent Brain Through Protest and the Power of Art, Part 2]]>In this follow‑up episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross continues her conversation with psychotherapist and theologian Dr. Gena St. David about the brain’s role in peacebuilding, activism, and everyday conflict.

Gena explains why people are rarely in the same “stage” of grief about our political and cultural crises, and why that matters for how we treat each other when minds begin to change. Instead of saying “I told you so,” she and Suzanne explore how to create space for genuine conversion without gloating or scapegoating, especially as Donald Trump's approval ratings and other political fortunes rise and fall.

Drawing on her recent nonviolent direct actions in the animal welfare movement, Gena shares what she’s learning on the ground:

👉 How to enter heated protests nonviolently, even when police respond with pepper spray and tear gas

👉 Why urgent situations are often less urgent than our bodies feel, and how five minutes of grounding can prevent violent reactions

👉 The “hassle line” training method adapted from the Civil Rights Movement, and how mirroring nonviolence (rather than aggression) rewires our nervous systems

👉 Creative tactics (like singing and dancing) to keep our upper brains online

Suzanne and Gena also dive into the role of art and the right brain in conflict transformation. Gena recalls attending a peacebuilders’ gathering where Suzanne had everyone painting, not just talking—a practice she now sees as essential, from a neuroscience perspective, for engaging the big‑picture, creative, relational capacities that help us find “third things” beyond win/lose logic.

The episode closes with Gena’s reflection on joy: nightly “tree reports” about two twin oaks in her yard—one thriving, one struggling—and how attending to their slow, mysterious growth grounds her in wonder and gratitude.

For anyone wondering how to keep their nervous system steady while practicing nonviolent resistance, how to welcome people whose views are shifting, or how art and spirituality can support courageous action.

Learn more about Gena’s work and writing: https://www.genastdavid.com/
Join Gena's Substack community: https://genastdavid.substack.com/

Follow along with Third Things First and get updates on the second edition of Suzanne's book, The Wicked Truth: Why Good People Do Bad Things!
www.thewickedtruth.com

0:26 Intro: the brain, broken trust, and hopeful futures
1:31 How we treat people when they change their minds
3:03 Gena’s privilege to protest and King’s “beloved community”
4:39 The Nonviolence Lab and nonviolent animal welfare actions
5:51 Tear gas, police violence, and beagles as a “third thing”
8:43 Urgency vs. seriousness: taking 5–10 minutes to ground
11:37 The “hassle line”: training the nervous system for nonviolence
15:23 Loving enemies without pretending they’re friends
18:59 Singing “Amazing Grace” and doing the Macarena under tear gas
21:34 The arts, right‑brain work, and peacebuilding
26:44 Joy in the “tree report”: twin oaks and slow growth
28:36 Where to find Gena’s work

]]>86cda8a4-cb66-4e5a-8cc1-4794e00ba93eMon, 01 Jun 2026 15:00:00 GMT<p>In this follow‑up episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross continues her conversation with psychotherapist and theologian Dr. Gena St. David about the brain’s role in peacebuilding, activism, and everyday conflict.<br /><br />Gena explains why people are rarely in the same “stage” of grief about our political and cultural crises, and why that matters for how we treat each other when minds begin to change. Instead of saying “I told you so,” she and Suzanne explore how to create space for genuine conversion without gloating or scapegoating, especially as Donald Trump's approval ratings and other political fortunes rise and fall.<br /><br />Drawing on her recent nonviolent direct actions in the animal welfare movement, Gena shares what she’s learning on the ground:<br /><br />👉 How to enter heated protests nonviolently, even when police respond with pepper spray and tear gas<br /><br />👉 Why urgent situations are often less urgent than our bodies feel, and how five minutes of grounding can prevent violent reactions<br /><br />👉 The “hassle line” training method adapted from the Civil Rights Movement, and how mirroring nonviolence (rather than aggression) rewires our nervous systems<br /><br />👉 Creative tactics (like singing and dancing) to keep our upper brains online<br /><br />Suzanne and Gena also dive into the role of art and the right brain in conflict transformation. Gena recalls attending a peacebuilders’ gathering where Suzanne had everyone painting, not just talking—a practice she now sees as essential, from a neuroscience perspective, for engaging the big‑picture, creative, relational capacities that help us find “third things” beyond win/lose logic.<br /><br />The episode closes with Gena’s reflection on joy: nightly “tree reports” about two twin oaks in her yard—one thriving, one struggling—and how attending to their slow, mysterious growth grounds her in wonder and gratitude.<br /><br />For anyone wondering how to keep their nervous system steady while practicing nonviolent resistance, how to welcome people whose views are shifting, or how art and spirituality can support courageous action.<br /><br />Learn more about Gena’s work and writing: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.genastdavid.com/" target="_blank">https://www.genastdavid.com/</a><br />Join Gena's Substack community: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://genastdavid.substack.com/" target="_blank">https://genastdavid.substack.com/</a><br /><br />Follow along with Third Things First and get updates on the second edition of Suzanne's book, The Wicked Truth: Why Good People Do Bad Things!<br /><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://www.thewickedtruth.com" target="_blank">www.thewickedtruth.com</a><br /><br />0:26 Intro: the brain, broken trust, and hopeful futures<br />1:31 How we treat people when they change their minds<br />3:03 Gena’s privilege to protest and King’s “beloved community”<br />4:39 The Nonviolence Lab and nonviolent animal welfare actions<br />5:51 Tear gas, police violence, and beagles as a “third thing”<br />8:43 Urgency vs. seriousness: taking 5–10 minutes to ground<br />11:37 The “hassle line”: training the nervous system for nonviolence<br />15:23 Loving enemies without pretending they’re friends<br />18:59 Singing “Amazing Grace” and doing the Macarena under tear gas<br />21:34 The arts, right‑brain work, and peacebuilding<br />26:44 Joy in the “tree report”: twin oaks and slow growth<br />28:36 Where to find Gena’s work</p>no00:29:51110Gena St. David on Training a Nonviolent Brain Through Protest and the Power of Art, Part 2full<![CDATA[Gena St. David on Betrayal, the Brain, and Nonviolent Action in a Polarized America, Part 1]]>What happens in our brains when we feel betrayed, and how do we learn to trust again? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with psychotherapist and theologian Dr. Gena St. David about betrayal, threat, and nonviolent action in our current political moment.

Building on her work at the intersection of neuroscience, Christian theology and peacebuilding, Gena explains how our nervous systems move between safety and stress, and why conflict pushes us into our “lizard brain.” She also explains how betrayal undermines our trust in others and in our own perception, but also how working through the panic of mistrust into truth can actually deepen trust on the other side.

Gena then turns to larger systems: political leaders who betray our hopes, industries built on hidden violence, and the overwhelming awareness many of us feel around animal agriculture, immigration, and climate breakdown. Drawing on her research with nonviolent practitioners around the world, she offers practical ways to:

++ Listen to our bodies as trustworthy early-warning systems
++ Discern when a threat is past vs. present
++ Run “small experiments” in relationships and systems to test where trust is warranted
++ Move through grief’s stages (denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance) without rushing to action too quickly
++ Stay in our “upper brain” so we don’t become what we oppose

Along the way, Suzanne and Gena connect Elphaba’s defiant “Defying Gravity” moment in the musical/film Wicked to our own rage at political betrayal, and ask how mimetic rivalry and the “spirit of accusation” are showing up in our polarized culture. They explore what it might mean to see enemies as “future friends,” in the spirit of Martin Luther King Jr., and to accept that different people will be in different stages of grief and action at any given time.

If you’re feeling angry, betrayed, or paralyzed by the state of the world, this conversation offers both clarity and compassion.

More about Gena: https://www.genastdavid.com/
The Brain & The Spirit: https://www.thebrainandthespirit.com/book
Gena's Substack, the Nonviolence Lab: https://genastdavid.substack.com/

Follow Third Things First and get updates on the second edition of Suzanne's book, The Wicked Truth: When Good People Do Bad Things!
www.thewickedtruth.com

4:10 Gena’s work at the intersection of neurobiology, theology, and nonviolence
5:28 Safety vs. stress: upper brain, lizard brain, and “eat or be eaten”
9:22 Betrayal as double danger
10:04 Misreading threat in close relationships: Gena’s bedroom panic story
13:29 Oxytocin, relief, and how misperceived threats can still build trust
15:37 Learning to trust ourselves
17:33 Nonviolence research and small experiments in trust
18:59 Betrayal by systems and hidden suffering
20:25 The “three A’s” of reckoning with systemic violence
21:52 Elphaba’s political anger
23:23 Grief and the stages we can’t skip
25:47 The danger of becoming what we oppose
26:24 Third things and seeing enemies as future friends
27:19 Why not everyone will be in the streets at the same time
29:39 Discernment question: what is this moment asking of me?

]]>ef1c91d1-1709-4da6-b3bc-8fafec61fb3aMon, 18 May 2026 15:00:00 GMT<p>What happens in our brains when we feel betrayed, and how do we learn to trust again? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with psychotherapist and theologian Dr. Gena St. David about betrayal, threat, and nonviolent action in our current political moment.<br /><br />Building on her work at the intersection of neuroscience, Christian theology and peacebuilding, Gena explains how our nervous systems move between safety and stress, and why conflict pushes us into our “lizard brain.” She also explains how betrayal undermines our trust in others and in our own perception, but also how working through the panic of mistrust into truth can actually deepen trust on the other side.<br /><br />Gena then turns to larger systems: political leaders who betray our hopes, industries built on hidden violence, and the overwhelming awareness many of us feel around animal agriculture, immigration, and climate breakdown. Drawing on her research with nonviolent practitioners around the world, she offers practical ways to:<br /><br />++ Listen to our bodies as trustworthy early-warning systems<br />++ Discern when a threat is past vs. present<br />++ Run “small experiments” in relationships and systems to test where trust is warranted<br />++ Move through grief’s stages (denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance) without rushing to action too quickly<br />++ Stay in our “upper brain” so we don’t become what we oppose<br /><br />Along the way, Suzanne and Gena connect Elphaba’s defiant “Defying Gravity” moment in the musical/film Wicked to our own rage at political betrayal, and ask how mimetic rivalry and the “spirit of accusation” are showing up in our polarized culture. They explore what it might mean to see enemies as “future friends,” in the spirit of Martin Luther King Jr., and to accept that different people will be in different stages of grief and action at any given time.<br /><br />If you’re feeling angry, betrayed, or paralyzed by the state of the world, this conversation offers both clarity and compassion.<br /><br />More about Gena: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.genastdavid.com/" target="_blank">https://www.genastdavid.com/</a><br />The Brain &amp; The Spirit: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.thebrainandthespirit.com/book" target="_blank">https://www.thebrainandthespirit.com/book</a><br />Gena's Substack, the Nonviolence Lab: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://genastdavid.substack.com/" target="_blank">https://genastdavid.substack.com/</a><br /><br />Follow Third Things First and get updates on the second edition of Suzanne's book, The Wicked Truth: When Good People Do Bad Things!<br /><a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://www.thewickedtruth.com" target="_blank">www.thewickedtruth.com</a><br /><br />4:10 Gena’s work at the intersection of neurobiology, theology, and nonviolence<br />5:28 Safety vs. stress: upper brain, lizard brain, and “eat or be eaten”<br />9:22 Betrayal as double danger<br />10:04 Misreading threat in close relationships: Gena’s bedroom panic story<br />13:29 Oxytocin, relief, and how misperceived threats can still build trust<br />15:37 Learning to trust ourselves<br />17:33 Nonviolence research and small experiments in trust<br />18:59 Betrayal by systems and hidden suffering<br />20:25 The “three A’s” of reckoning with systemic violence<br />21:52 Elphaba’s political anger<br />23:23 Grief and the stages we can’t skip<br />25:47 The danger of becoming what we oppose<br />26:24 Third things and seeing enemies as future friends<br />27:19 Why not everyone will be in the streets at the same time<br />29:39 Discernment question: what is this moment asking of me?</p>no00:30:2519Gena St. David on Betrayal, the Brain, and Nonviolent Action in a Polarized America, Part 1full<![CDATA[From Accusation to Gratitude: The Mysticism of Daily Joy, with Jim Warren and Sally Graciela Ramirez]]>Do you feel in touch with your deepest goals and desires? Or do your dreams feel more like distractions from the hurt and broken relationships you've been avoiding?

In this follow‑up episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross continues the conversation with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about how magic and mysticism influence their spiritual practice. Then, they delve into even thornier issues of scapegoating, humility, and daily practices of joy.

Sally describes how she reads Tarot as a tool for discernment rather than fortune‑telling, steering clients away from fantasy and toward reconciliation. Her practice, she explains, is less “magic” than mysticism grounded in humility, scripture, and love of neighbor.

Jim reflects on how this inner work connects to mimetic theory and our current culture of rivalry and blame. He names “the spirit of accusation”—our urge to point the finger and feel certain we know who the problem is—as a key driver of polarization, resentment, and escalating conflict. Drawing on Girard’s insights about scapegoating, he invites listeners to look at the three fingers pointing back at us: the shame, guilt, and woundedness that so often hide beneath our righteous anger and desire for vengeance.

The episode also explores:

- How authentic dreams differ from escapist fantasy.
- A gentle, inclusive approach to Christian mysticism.
- Morning routines and the mysticism of the mundane.
- The shared gratitude of two people looking back on lives once filled with "nightmares," now filled with love, shalom, and unexpected gifts.

If you’re wrestling with accusation (online or in your own heart), trying to discern between holy longing and fantasy, or simply looking for grounded, accessible practices of prayer and joy, this conversation offers both spiritual depth and very practical tools.

👉 Explore Jim and Sally’s work:

Jim's website: https://warrenmagic.com/
Jim's book: https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Apocalypse-Comprehensible-Thought-Girard/dp/178279073X
Sally's website: https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/
Sally's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI

⏱ Chapters (approx.)
0:00 Dreams vs. fantasy: why real dreams require reconciliation
2:07 Sally on Tarot cards as tools
6:30 How did these two meet?
9:54 Mysticism as awareness of interconnectedness and love
12:15 The humble power of "not knowing"
15:13 Rene Girard and the “spirit of accusation” in modern culture
19:55 Finding joy and gratitude in daily life

]]>6d9ddf3c-ff9f-4503-bffb-93f647c1df1aMon, 04 May 2026 15:00:00 GMT<p>Do you feel in touch with your deepest goals and desires? Or do your dreams feel more like distractions from the hurt and broken relationships you've been avoiding? <br /><br />In this follow‑up episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross continues the conversation with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about how magic and mysticism influence their spiritual practice. Then, they delve into even thornier issues of scapegoating, humility, and daily practices of joy.<br /><br />Sally describes how she reads Tarot as a tool for discernment rather than fortune‑telling, steering clients away from fantasy and toward reconciliation. Her practice, she explains, is less “magic” than mysticism grounded in humility, scripture, and love of neighbor.<br /><br />Jim reflects on how this inner work connects to mimetic theory and our current culture of rivalry and blame. He names “the spirit of accusation”—our urge to point the finger and feel certain we know who the problem is—as a key driver of polarization, resentment, and escalating conflict. Drawing on Girard’s insights about scapegoating, he invites listeners to look at the three fingers pointing back at us: the shame, guilt, and woundedness that so often hide beneath our righteous anger and desire for vengeance.<br /><br />The episode also explores:<br /><br />- How authentic dreams differ from escapist fantasy.<br />- A gentle, inclusive approach to Christian mysticism.<br />- Morning routines and the mysticism of the mundane.<br />- The shared gratitude of two people looking back on lives once filled with "nightmares," now filled with love, shalom, and unexpected gifts.<br /><br />If you’re wrestling with accusation (online or in your own heart), trying to discern between holy longing and fantasy, or simply looking for grounded, accessible practices of prayer and joy, this conversation offers both spiritual depth and very practical tools.<br /><br />👉 Explore Jim and Sally’s work:<br /><br />Jim's website: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://warrenmagic.com/" target="_blank">https://warrenmagic.com/</a><br />Jim's book: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Apocalypse-Comprehensible-Thought-Girard/dp/178279073X" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Apocalypse-Comprehensible-Thought-Girard/dp/178279073X</a><br />Sally's website: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/" target="_blank">https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/</a><br />Sally's music: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI" target="_blank">https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI</a><br /><br />⏱ Chapters (approx.)<br />0:00 Dreams vs. fantasy: why real dreams require reconciliation<br />2:07 Sally on Tarot cards as tools<br />6:30 How did these two meet?<br />9:54 Mysticism as awareness of interconnectedness and love<br />12:15 The humble power of "not knowing"<br />15:13 Rene Girard and the “spirit of accusation” in modern culture<br />19:55 Finding joy and gratitude in daily life</p>no00:34:2318From Accusation to Gratitude: The Mysticism of Daily Joy, with Jim Warren and Sally Graciela Ramirezfull<![CDATA[Magic, Tarot, and How Wonder Can Transform Conflict, With Jim Warren and Sally Graciela Ramirez]]>What if close‑up magic and Tarot readings could help us loosen our certainty, imagine new possibilities, and take small steps toward peace with justice? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren, and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about art, mystery, and conflict transformation.

James, an MDiv-trained magician who has performed for years at Hollywood’s Magic Castle, shares why he calls magic “possibility in your pocket”—a playful, off-the-cuff art form that can be done anywhere, anytime, to create moments of wonder and release. Drawing on Soren Kierkegaard, he explains how powerful tricks can free people from the “box” of necessity, spark laughter and awe, and even build unlikely bridges across racial and class divides.

Sally, whose spiritual journey has woven through Zen Buddhism, Sufi-led psychic development, Native American traditions, and a return to Catholicism, explains how she uses Tarot as a contemplative tool rather than fortune-telling. Through images like the Hermit and the Star, she invites clients to look inward, heal family relationships, and co‑create a life of spiritual alignment, not just personal desire. For her, mysticism is grounded, prayerful, and oriented toward loving neighbor and making peace at home.

Together, James and Sally explore:

- How art forms like magic and Tarot can function as “third things” in tense communities, creating safe space for imagination and shared delight.

- The difference between fantasy and ethically grounded dreams, and why inner work and reconciliation must precede “manifesting” outcomes.

- How Christians might rethink “occult” fears and see the continuity between deep prayer, symbolic art, and inclusive, Spirit-led discernment.

- Why small, face‑to‑face acts of wonder—like a card trick between strangers—can be a real practice of peacebuilding and nonviolent connection.

If you’re curious how art, mystery, and faith can open new paths through conflict, or you’re skeptical about magic and Tarot but still longing for more imaginative tools, this conversation offers playful, thoughtful, and disarming perspectives.

👉 Learn more and connect:

James Warren: https://warrenmagic.com/
Sally Grace Readings: https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/
Sally's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI

🕊 Sign up for our newsletter at www.thewickedtruth.com to receive updates on every new upload, and info on the revised Wicked Truth ebook, a study of how you can use the musical Wicked as a “third thing” to galvanize communities seeking peace with justice!

0:00 Magic anywhere
2:05 Why certainty blocks conflict transformation
3:15 Introducing magician James Warren and mystic Sally Graciela Ramirez
5:18 Sally’s journey: Zen, Sufi teachers, and returning to Catholicism
10:00 How Sally uses Tarot: prayer, images, and healing
15:17 What Jim wants audiences to experience: release, laughter, and awe
16:45 Magic as possibility vs. necessity
21:18 Can magic be a “third thing” in conflict communities?
26:38 Handling skepticism and fear of magic and the occult
29:40 Tarot, discernment, and neighbor love
35:31 Closing reflections on art, Tarot, magic, and peace with justice

]]>ef9dd679-1bcd-462b-a38c-f6864d7cbc0fMon, 20 Apr 2026 15:00:00 GMT<p>What if close‑up magic and Tarot readings could help us loosen our certainty, imagine new possibilities, and take small steps toward peace with justice? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren, and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about art, mystery, and conflict transformation.<br /><br />James, an MDiv-trained magician who has performed for years at Hollywood’s Magic Castle, shares why he calls magic “possibility in your pocket”—a playful, off-the-cuff art form that can be done anywhere, anytime, to create moments of wonder and release. Drawing on Soren Kierkegaard, he explains how powerful tricks can free people from the “box” of necessity, spark laughter and awe, and even build unlikely bridges across racial and class divides.<br /><br />Sally, whose spiritual journey has woven through Zen Buddhism, Sufi-led psychic development, Native American traditions, and a return to Catholicism, explains how she uses Tarot as a contemplative tool rather than fortune-telling. Through images like the Hermit and the Star, she invites clients to look inward, heal family relationships, and co‑create a life of spiritual alignment, not just personal desire. For her, mysticism is grounded, prayerful, and oriented toward loving neighbor and making peace at home.<br /><br />Together, James and Sally explore:<br /><br />- How art forms like magic and Tarot can function as “third things” in tense communities, creating safe space for imagination and shared delight.<br /><br />- The difference between fantasy and ethically grounded dreams, and why inner work and reconciliation must precede “manifesting” outcomes.<br /><br />- How Christians might rethink “occult” fears and see the continuity between deep prayer, symbolic art, and inclusive, Spirit-led discernment.<br /><br />- Why small, face‑to‑face acts of wonder—like a card trick between strangers—can be a real practice of peacebuilding and nonviolent connection.<br /><br />If you’re curious how art, mystery, and faith can open new paths through conflict, or you’re skeptical about magic and Tarot but still longing for more imaginative tools, this conversation offers playful, thoughtful, and disarming perspectives.<br /><br />👉 Learn more and connect:<br /><br />James Warren: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://warrenmagic.com/" target="_blank">https://warrenmagic.com/</a><br />Sally Grace Readings: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/" target="_blank">https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/</a><br />Sally's music: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI" target="_blank">https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI</a><br /><br />🕊 Sign up for our newsletter at <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://www.thewickedtruth.com" target="_blank">www.thewickedtruth.com</a> to receive updates on every new upload, and info on the revised Wicked Truth ebook, a study of how you can use the musical Wicked as a “third thing” to galvanize communities seeking peace with justice!<br /><br />0:00 Magic anywhere<br />2:05 Why certainty blocks conflict transformation<br />3:15 Introducing magician James Warren and mystic Sally Graciela Ramirez<br />5:18 Sally’s journey: Zen, Sufi teachers, and returning to Catholicism<br />10:00 How Sally uses Tarot: prayer, images, and healing<br />15:17 What Jim wants audiences to experience: release, laughter, and awe<br />16:45 Magic as possibility vs. necessity<br />21:18 Can magic be a “third thing” in conflict communities?<br />26:38 Handling skepticism and fear of magic and the occult<br />29:40 Tarot, discernment, and neighbor love<br />35:31 Closing reflections on art, Tarot, magic, and peace with justice</p>no00:36:3317Magic, Tarot, and How Wonder Can Transform Conflict, With Jim Warren and Sally Graciela Ramirezfull<![CDATA[Blessing in the Freefall: Anger, Grief, and Joy with Andrew DeCort, p2]]>In part 2 of their conversation, Suzanne Ross talks with theologian and peacebuilder Dr. Andrew DeCort about moving through shame and rage into what he calls the “purple sphere” of grief—and discovering blessing and joy on the other side.

Andrew, author and founder of the Neighbor Love Movement and the Reframe newsletter, shares from his recent arrest with 90+ faith leaders in a nonviolent protest against ICE in Minneapolis and reflects on how our culture’s “glee in other people’s grief” corrodes our souls and our politics. Drawing on James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Andrew and Suzanne explore what it means to resist othering without becoming otherers ourselves.

Together they trace a kind of emotional “stratigraphy”:

  • Green shame, that sinking sense of not being enough
  • Red anger, the fire that can be destructive or creative
  • Purple grief, the terrifying freefall where “why finds no answer”
  • Blue joy, the ambient delight that appears when we love what is truly good

You’ll hear practical Neighbor Love practices for metabolizing anger, inhabiting grief safely in trusted relationships, and blessing even those we oppose: ICE officers, political leaders, and ourselves. Andrew models a radical blessing practice inspired by Bonhoeffer: “Despite everything, you belong to God.”

If you’re feeling consumed by political rage, tempted to dehumanize those you see as the problem, or struggling to believe that you belong to God, this conversation offers an honest, embodied, and hopeful path forward.

👉 Follow Andrew’s work:

⏱ Chapters (approx.)
2:14 Green shame, red anger, and the descent into purple grief
4:28 Glee in others’ grief and DHS’s Christmas deportation memes
7:17 Fear as the ether around shame, anger, and grief
8:44 Grief must be witnessed: vulnerability and safe relationships
9:13 Pain as superpower: circles of exclusion becoming solidarity
12:19 Nonviolence as creative response vs. reactive conformity
14:12 Not othering the otherers and blessing our enemies
15:11 Bonhoeffer’s embodied blessing and belonging to God
19:55 Blue joy: loving what is good in nonviolent resistance
21:23 Kneeling in the cold: ambient joy at the Minneapolis ICE protest
24:04 Wicked’s ambiguous fall as an image of grief’s “unlimitedness”
26:11 How to follow Andrew and his upcoming book

]]>851533d1-6a32-494d-bf01-9e2dd85b4568Mon, 06 Apr 2026 15:00:00 GMT<p>In part 2 of their conversation, Suzanne Ross talks with theologian and peacebuilder Dr. Andrew DeCort about moving through shame and rage into what he calls the “purple sphere” of grief—and discovering blessing and joy on the other side.</p><p>Andrew, author and founder of the Neighbor Love Movement and the Reframe newsletter, shares from his recent arrest with 90+ faith leaders in a nonviolent protest against ICE in Minneapolis and reflects on how our culture’s “glee in other people’s grief” corrodes our souls and our politics. Drawing on James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Andrew and Suzanne explore what it means to resist othering without becoming otherers ourselves.</p><p>Together they trace a kind of emotional “stratigraphy”:</p><ul><li>Green shame, that sinking sense of not being enough</li><li>Red anger, the fire that can be destructive or creative</li><li>Purple grief, the terrifying freefall where “why finds no answer”</li><li>Blue joy, the ambient delight that appears when we love what is truly good</li></ul><p>You’ll hear practical Neighbor Love practices for metabolizing anger, inhabiting grief safely in trusted relationships, and blessing even those we oppose: ICE officers, political leaders, and ourselves. Andrew models a radical blessing practice inspired by Bonhoeffer: “Despite everything, you belong to God.”</p><p>If you’re feeling consumed by political rage, tempted to dehumanize those you see as the problem, or struggling to believe that <i>you</i> belong to God, this conversation offers an honest, embodied, and hopeful path forward.</p><p>👉 Follow Andrew’s work:</p><ul><li>Website: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://andrew-decort.com" target="_blank">https://andrew-decort.com</a></li><li>Substack (Reframe / Stop &amp; Think): <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://andrewdecort.substack.com" target="_blank">https://andrewdecort.substack.com</a></li></ul><p>⏱ Chapters (approx.)<br />2:14 Green shame, red anger, and the descent into purple grief<br />4:28 Glee in others’ grief and DHS’s Christmas deportation memes<br />7:17 Fear as the ether around shame, anger, and grief<br />8:44 Grief must be witnessed: vulnerability and safe relationships<br />9:13 Pain as superpower: circles of exclusion becoming solidarity<br />12:19 Nonviolence as creative response vs. reactive conformity<br />14:12 Not othering the otherers and blessing our enemies<br />15:11 Bonhoeffer’s embodied blessing and belonging to God<br />19:55 Blue joy: loving what is good in nonviolent resistance<br />21:23 Kneeling in the cold: ambient joy at the Minneapolis ICE protest<br />24:04 Wicked’s ambiguous fall as an image of grief’s “unlimitedness”<br />26:11 How to follow Andrew and his upcoming book</p>no00:28:2016Blessing in the Freefall: Anger, Grief, and Joy with Andrew DeCort, p2full<![CDATA[The Dissident Theologian Arrested for Loving His Neighbor | Third Things First w/ Andrew DeCort, p1]]>Scholar, peacebuilder, and “dissident theologian” Andrew DeCort joins us from his bathtub to discuss his arrest at an anti-ICE protest in Minneapolis, and his discovery that anger is “a fire that can make beauty.” In this extraordinary conversation, Andrew and Suzanne explore the emotional landscape of working for justpeace in a world that rewards division. From the shame that tells us we don't belong, to the anger packed with information, to the grief that opens us to something deeper, this episode maps the inner journey that peacebuilders rarely talk about in public.

In this episode, we explore:
• What makes someone a “dissident theologian” — and why it's not something you choose
• Andrew's arrest with 97 faith leaders at a nonviolent ICE protest in Minneapolis
• Neighbor love as an abolition movement against othering
• The emotional layers of peace work: shame → anger → grief → merriment
• Why anger is like fire, and can forge as well as destroy
• Moral emergencies: when belonging itself is in danger
• James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the wisdom traditions that light the path
• How Elphaba from Wicked mirrors the real-world tension between righteous anger and destructive rage

ABOUT OUR GUEST
Andrew DeCort, PhD (University of Chicago), is a scholar of religious and political ethics, founder of the Institute for Faith and Flourishing, and co-founder of the Neighbor-Love Movement in Ethiopia, which has reached over 20 million people. He has taught at Wheaton College, Ethiopian Graduate School of Theology, and Bonn University. His latest book, Reviving the Golden Rule: How the Ancient Ethic of Neighbor Love Can Heal the World, is available now.

Learn more: andrew-decort.com
Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/reviving-the-golden-rule?srsltid=AfmBOorvSFynljVabN7DZA3iZYHHnAQ-te7Lsymq_Mn5tisYELftIFUu

TIMESTAMPS
00:00 — Introduction
02:42 — What makes a "dissident theologian"?
05:42 — The Neighbor Love Movement and abolishing othering
09:40 — Why othering persists: the benefits of division
10:40 — The emotional landscape of peace work
11:38 — Elphaba, Wicked, and righteous anger
12:06 — Nonviolent direct action in Minneapolis and moral emergencies
14:24 — Elphaba's green, shame, and James Baldwin
15:21 — Shame as the chemical weapon of othering
16:17 — What is a moral emergency?
18:00 — Anger as fire: Audre Lorde, Richard Schwartz, and speaking FOR your anger
19:00 — A ceremony of burning: the father's desk, the dissertation, the running shoes
20:30 — The Fire Arts Center and George Floyd: blacksmiths as peacebuilders
21:34 — From shame to anger to grief: the colors of peace work

LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE
🎧 Apple Podcasts: Third Things First on Apple Podcasts
🎧 Spotify: Third Things First on Spotify
📰 Substack: thewickedtruthsr.substack.com
👻 Ghost: the-wicked-truth.ghost.io
🔔 Subscribe to this channel for new episodes every other week!

]]>e37ddc51-9ecc-4b19-9d3b-f5dfeb28c06cMon, 23 Mar 2026 15:00:00 GMT<p>Scholar, peacebuilder, and “dissident theologian” Andrew DeCort joins us from his bathtub to discuss his arrest at an anti-ICE protest in Minneapolis, and his discovery that anger is “a fire that can make beauty.” In this extraordinary conversation, Andrew and Suzanne explore the emotional landscape of working for justpeace in a world that rewards division. From the shame that tells us we don't belong, to the anger packed with information, to the grief that opens us to something deeper, this episode maps the inner journey that peacebuilders rarely talk about in public.<br /><br /> In this episode, we explore:<br />• What makes someone a “dissident theologian” — and why it's not something you choose<br />• Andrew's arrest with 97 faith leaders at a nonviolent ICE protest in Minneapolis<br />• Neighbor love as an abolition movement against othering<br />• The emotional layers of peace work: shame → anger → grief → merriment<br />• Why anger is like fire, and can forge as well as destroy<br />• Moral emergencies: when belonging itself is in danger<br />• James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the wisdom traditions that light the path<br />• How Elphaba from Wicked mirrors the real-world tension between righteous anger and destructive rage<br /> <br />ABOUT OUR GUEST<br />Andrew DeCort, PhD (University of Chicago), is a scholar of religious and political ethics, founder of the Institute for Faith and Flourishing, and co-founder of the Neighbor-Love Movement in Ethiopia, which has reached over 20 million people. He has taught at Wheaton College, Ethiopian Graduate School of Theology, and Bonn University. His latest book, Reviving the Golden Rule: How the Ancient Ethic of Neighbor Love Can Heal the World, is available now.<br /><br />Learn more: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://andrew-decort.com" target="_blank">andrew-decort.com</a><br />Get the book: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.ivpress.com/reviving-the-golden-rule?srsltid=AfmBOorvSFynljVabN7DZA3iZYHHnAQ-te7Lsymq_Mn5tisYELftIFUu" target="_blank">https://www.ivpress.com/reviving-the-golden-rule?srsltid=AfmBOorvSFynljVabN7DZA3iZYHHnAQ-te7Lsymq_Mn5tisYELftIFUu</a><br /> <br />TIMESTAMPS<br />00:00 — Introduction<br />02:42 — What makes a "dissident theologian"?<br />05:42 — The Neighbor Love Movement and abolishing othering<br />09:40 — Why othering persists: the benefits of division<br />10:40 — The emotional landscape of peace work<br />11:38 — Elphaba, Wicked, and righteous anger<br />12:06 — Nonviolent direct action in Minneapolis and moral emergencies<br />14:24 — Elphaba's green, shame, and James Baldwin<br />15:21 — Shame as the chemical weapon of othering<br />16:17 — What is a moral emergency?<br />18:00 — Anger as fire: Audre Lorde, Richard Schwartz, and speaking FOR your anger<br />19:00 — A ceremony of burning: the father's desk, the dissertation, the running shoes<br />20:30 — The Fire Arts Center and George Floyd: blacksmiths as peacebuilders<br />21:34 — From shame to anger to grief: the colors of peace work<br /> <br />LISTEN &amp; SUBSCRIBE<br />🎧 Apple Podcasts: Third Things First on Apple Podcasts<br />🎧 Spotify: Third Things First on Spotify<br />📰 Substack: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com" target="_blank">thewickedtruthsr.substack.com</a><br />👻 Ghost: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://the-wicked-truth.ghost.io" target="_blank">the-wicked-truth.ghost.io</a><br />🔔 Subscribe to this channel for new episodes every other week!</p>no00:22:5115The Dissident Theologian Arrested for Loving His Neighbor | Third Things First w/ Andrew DeCort, p1full<![CDATA[Forgotten Graves Are Reconciling Black and White Churches: Dr. Julia Robinson Moore]]>What happens when you discover your church sits beside an enslaved burial ground? That the descendants of those enslaved people still live just blocks away?

In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with Rev. Dr. Julia Robinson Moore about her courageous work telling the truth about slavery, lynching, and racial violence, while building a shared future rooted in peace and reconciliation.

Dr. Moore, an ordained Presbyterian pastor and associate professor of religion at UNC Charlotte, shares how a childhood encounter with the Ku Klux Klan and later scholarly work on lynching led her into hands-on peacebuilding in Charlotte, North Carolina. She explains how her work with Preserving Sacred Spaces helps Black and White descendants come together around segregated and often unmarked burial grounds on former plantations and church properties.

You’ll hear how her team uses neuroscience, spiritual practices like the Immanuel approach, and community-based design to help people build the emotional capacity to hold hard conversations, stay relational, and collaborate on memorials that “mark the unmarked.” Julia also describes a current project at Providence Presbyterian Church and Matthews-Murkland Presbyterian Church, where descendants are raising funds to complete a powerful memorial honoring graves that have been neglected for generations.​

If you’re wondering how to confront a painful history without getting stuck in rivalry, shame, or despair, this conversation offers concrete practices, stories of hope, and a powerful “third thing”: sacred ground that calls divided communities back together.

👉 Learn more and support Julia’s work: https://www.mooregraceministries.com
📰 Sign up for the Third Things First newsletter! thewickedtruth.com
💡 Discover more about mimetic theory, and how it shapes Julia’s work: https://www.ravenfoundation.org/rene-girard/

]]>9e20c105-a59c-446f-918d-3e0aac33a6a6Mon, 09 Mar 2026 17:12:52 GMT<p>What happens when you discover your church sits beside an enslaved burial ground? That the descendants of those enslaved people still live just blocks away?<br /><br />In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with Rev. Dr. Julia Robinson Moore about her courageous work telling the truth about slavery, lynching, and racial violence, while building a shared future rooted in peace and reconciliation.<br /><br />Dr. Moore, an ordained Presbyterian pastor and associate professor of religion at UNC Charlotte, shares how a childhood encounter with the Ku Klux Klan and later scholarly work on lynching led her into hands-on peacebuilding in Charlotte, North Carolina. She explains how her work with Preserving Sacred Spaces helps Black and White descendants come together around segregated and often unmarked burial grounds on former plantations and church properties.<br /><br />You’ll hear how her team uses neuroscience, spiritual practices like the Immanuel approach, and community-based design to help people build the emotional capacity to hold hard conversations, stay relational, and collaborate on memorials that “mark the unmarked.” Julia also describes a current project at Providence Presbyterian Church and Matthews-Murkland Presbyterian Church, where descendants are raising funds to complete a powerful memorial honoring graves that have been neglected for generations.​<br /><br />If you’re wondering how to confront a painful history without getting stuck in rivalry, shame, or despair, this conversation offers concrete practices, stories of hope, and a powerful “third thing”: sacred ground that calls divided communities back together.<br /><br />👉 Learn more and support Julia’s work: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.mooregraceministries.com" target="_blank">https://www.mooregraceministries.com</a><br />📰 Sign up for the Third Things First newsletter! <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://thewickedtruth.com" target="_blank">thewickedtruth.com</a> <br />💡 Discover more about mimetic theory, and how it shapes Julia’s work: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www.ravenfoundation.org/rene-girard/" target="_blank">https://www.ravenfoundation.org/rene-girard/</a></p>no00:29:0714Forgotten Graves Are Reconciling Black and White Churches: Dr. Julia Robinson Moorefull<![CDATA[The Grimmerie as Sacred Text: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 2]]>Suzanne and Dr. Brian Ammons continue explore Wicked through the unique lens of sacred text, unearthing themes of hope, disillusionment, and the power of ancient wisdom. They also emphasize personal resonances with Elphaba's journey and the impact of cultural context on representation. Finally, they discuss the role of art in opening space for tough conversations and for reconnecting with our own hope and joy.

]]>0ea2d348-3a69-415b-8e5f-f24c15c7711bMon, 23 Feb 2026 16:30:00 GMT<p>Suzanne and Dr. Brian Ammons continue explore <i>Wicked</i> through the unique lens of sacred text, unearthing themes of hope, disillusionment, and the power of ancient wisdom. They also emphasize personal resonances with Elphaba's journey and the impact of cultural context on representation. Finally, they discuss the role of art in opening space for tough conversations and for reconnecting with our own hope and joy.</p>no00:24:2913The Grimmerie as Sacred Text: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 2full<![CDATA[Defying the Gravity of Going It Alone: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 1]]>In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne and Rev. Dr. Brian Ammons discuss the queer elements of Wicked, how its story pushes back against oppressive systems ... But also, how Elphaba's journey can help us claim the gift of otherness. They delve into "Defying Gravity" as a metaphor for rejecting old narratives and embracing otherness as a source of unique insight and perspective that still needs a strong community to flourish.

]]>77b1d773-bae1-49c5-a5d5-9b8c8c0d17bdMon, 09 Feb 2026 16:30:00 GMT<p>In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne and Rev. Dr. Brian Ammons discuss the queer elements of <i>Wicked, </i>how its story pushes back against oppressive systems ... But also, how Elphaba's journey can help us claim the gift of otherness. They delve into "Defying Gravity" as a metaphor for rejecting old narratives and embracing otherness as a source of unique insight and perspective that still needs a strong community to flourish.</p>no00:20:3112Defying the Gravity of Going It Alone: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 1full<![CDATA[Dialogue Is Not Enough: Dr. David Anderson Hooker on Changing the Story of Conflict]]>Dr. David Anderson Hooker joins Third Things First to explore narrative transformation, conflict transformation, peacebuilding, and racial reconciliation through the lens of stories vs. narratives, victim narratives, and the practice of mediating conflict through a “third thing”. Host Suzanne Ross talks with the peacebuilder, mediator, and theologian about why dialogue across difference is necessary, but not sufficient for real change in conflicted communities.

Drawing on decades of work in racial reconciliation, community building, law, and ministry, Dr. Hooker explains how narratives—not just stories—shape our sense-making, our systems, and what we believe is possible. He distinguishes between stories (told in hindsight) and deeper narrative frames that can trap us in victimhood or open pathways to courage, inclusion, and transformation. You’ll hear powerful examples from his work in trauma healing, reflections on how competing Christian narratives fuel exclusion or belonging, and how “third things” like film or art safely surface our different ways of seeing.
​
If you care about peacebuilding, theology, social justice, or simply changing the story you live inside, this conversation offers language, practices, and hope! Follow Dr. Hooker, and the Wicked Truth, for more resources like this.

Dr. Hooker's website, Counter Stories Consulting: https://counterstoriesconsulting.com/

Purchase Dr. Hooker's book, "The Little Book of Transformative Community Conferencing": https://shorturl.at/dCcLv

Read more about Dr. Hooker's work through his page at the KROC Institute at the University of Notre Dame: https://shorturl.at/RlzEK

Follow us for more updates! http://thewickedtruth.com/

And Don't forget to sign up for the Wicked Truth newsletter! https://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com/

]]>a7ca7a2b-7eca-4e39-a7f0-ff6b153147baMon, 26 Jan 2026 19:17:19 GMT<p>Dr. David Anderson Hooker joins Third Things First to explore narrative transformation, conflict transformation, peacebuilding, and racial reconciliation through the lens of stories vs. narratives, victim narratives, and the practice of mediating conflict through a “third thing”. Host Suzanne Ross talks with the peacebuilder, mediator, and theologian about why dialogue across difference is necessary, but not sufficient for real change in conflicted communities.<br /><br />Drawing on decades of work in racial reconciliation, community building, law, and ministry, Dr. Hooker explains how narratives—not just stories—shape our sense-making, our systems, and what we believe is possible. He distinguishes between stories (told in hindsight) and deeper narrative frames that can trap us in victimhood or open pathways to courage, inclusion, and transformation. You’ll hear powerful examples from his work in trauma healing, reflections on how competing Christian narratives fuel exclusion or belonging, and how “third things” like film or art safely surface our different ways of seeing.<br />​<br />If you care about peacebuilding, theology, social justice, or simply changing the story you live inside, this conversation offers language, practices, and hope! Follow Dr. Hooker, and the Wicked Truth, for more resources like this.<br /><br />Dr. Hooker's website, Counter Stories Consulting: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://counterstoriesconsulting.com/" target="_blank">https://counterstoriesconsulting.com/</a><br /><br />Purchase Dr. Hooker's book, "The Little Book of Transformative Community Conferencing": <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://shorturl.at/dCcLv" target="_blank">https://shorturl.at/dCcLv</a><br /><br />Read more about Dr. Hooker's work through his page at the KROC Institute at the University of Notre Dame: <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://shorturl.at/RlzEK" target="_blank">https://shorturl.at/RlzEK</a><br /><br />Follow us for more updates! <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="http://thewickedtruth.com/" target="_blank">http://thewickedtruth.com/</a><br /><br />And Don't forget to sign up for the Wicked Truth newsletter! <a rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com/" target="_blank">https://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com/</a></p>no00:35:3911Dialogue Is Not Enough: Dr. David Anderson Hooker on Changing the Story of Conflictfull